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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2015, 19:46 
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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2015, 20:00 
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voltbird - thanks for the article! didn't know about it, but a nice comparison and a reminder... also, this recent show "show me a hero" is a great story on the same topic, very much recommended.

merz - yes, both points you mention are important. one of the things often overlooked in arguments for an increased security is that its full guarantee is simply impossible, for the very same reason that you mention. unfortunately, the impact of this emphasis on security as the primary goal of nowadays politics has blinded people towards so many other important issues, such as basic human rights.

omen, could you please provide evidence for what you're claiming? this video might be educational (they cite their sources on the youtube page)

phpBB [video]


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2015, 20:16 
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c, you're lumping so many things together that they begin to speak far more of your personal issues than the world we live in. (the part where you're sidetracking into feminists, white male..etc) I understand these things are related because the populace is comprised of individuals and the forces that exert gravity of whatever sort upon them, but perhaps we can at least try to keep on a common subject? you're now suggesting that homeless people from war-torn middle east are setting their own accommodations on fire in order to create the impression of them being subjected to violent xenophobia? ..

at any rate, i'm fine with violent religious extremism in the west because from a certain standpoint its more of an inconvenience than anything - its not going to remarkably change our way of life in and of itself (it needs right-wing reactionaries to do that on our behalf, indeed that is what it seeks to do).. at their core the perpetrators of recent atrocities are much less of a state with ambitions at world-wide caliphate under sharia and more a doomsday cult preaching the final confrontation between heathen crusaders and holy warriors to bring about the rapture. their ideas are resonating with disaffected youth of a late capitalist society where you can only ever be what you consume. this too shall pass. I'll gladly take a bullet or a blast of some suicide vest to keep moving through it like business as usual because it kind of is. The only way we can defeat these things is seeing them for what they are: lost and desperate souls that are a direct product of the past century and a half of cultural and economic development.

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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2015, 20:28 
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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2015, 21:17 
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omen wrote:
sweden is ruled by the feminist left. the feminist left's enemy is the straight white male. their logic is; the enemy of my enemy is my friend, and thus...

Image





..i.. .. i think our world views are extremely different, and that is all i can say in response.
its interesting that your resentment is towards manifestations of the same thing i myself resent. but the underlying structure you seem to have found in your understanding of it differs so much from what i've arrived to. somehow it all seems very concrete and organised and purposeful to you. but anyway, the subject has sort of exhausted itself because i'm not sure how we can get to anything besides reactions of confusion towards what the other is saying.

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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2015, 21:28 
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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2015, 21:49 
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I tend to react strongly to things that divide. when emphasis on equality gets caught up in matters of identity, it bothers me. I understand both the tendency and in some ways the necessity of identity in such matters but it becomes very clear that it can and does subvert its own cause, becoming an end unto itself. i don't consider myself an oppressor of anything (and yes, have known the full range of reactions that come with holding to that opinion as a white male) but also do not see myself as oppressed. aside from hashtag activism that exists for the clear purpose of feeling good about oneself in a world that has diminished one's ability to feel that they can accomplish anything to change a troublesome status quo, identity politics rest upon shaky foundations. like your fellow compatriots perception of yourself as swedish resting largely upon the same sentiment that you are calling into question.. and, i mean, you aren't the only person doing this. This week alone I've had people presently in the process of immigrating to EU because of declining (more social than economic) conditions elsewhere bemoan in the influx of .. refugees from the middle east. surely I am not the only person noticing the feats of mental gymnastics involved?

the way i see it the same thing that lets you assert a swedish identity is why they're coming. yes, despite the fact that some minority of them are going to hold onto some values incompatible with our way of thinking and living. and yes, despite the fact that some far smaller minority within that minority will resort to self-immolating (heh, no pun intended) violence doesn't showcase some fundamental flaw in the practice of being open to immigration in a time of humanitarian crisis or acknowledgement of some fluidity of culture, traditions..etc. the whole purpose - not per some conspiracy theory but bluntly stated by the perpetrators of these recent attacks - is to get people like you to react in the exact way you're reacting. they are too few to transform our societies - we're the only ones able to do that amidst fear, anger and mostly confusion.

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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2015, 21:52 
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Even a small fraction of rachmones would behoove you, but I suppose your mind is already made up.

Quote:
I'll gladly take a bullet or a blast of some suicide vest to keep moving through it like business as usual because it kind of is. The only way we can defeat these things is seeing them for what they are: lost and desperate souls that are a direct product of the past century and a half of cultural and economic development.


To echo merz: I myself, and most of my family, live and work in a handful of blazing bullseyes within the greater concentric series of bullseyes that comprise New York City. (One's a Times employee, I commute through Grand Central most days, another is in Rockefeller Center; if one had not made a particular and pivotal decision, he would have perished with those in the World Trade Center on 9/11.) All of us go about our days with the working fear that this will happen again. It's not a matter of "if." It's "when." (I am seeing a Broadway play tomorrow night and I am honestly, and I think reasonably, nervous. Let's just say I always map out an exit strategy.) Allowing that fear to dehumanize us plays straight into the hands of the extremists rallying up the enraged and disaffected to take up arms against innocent people.


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PostPosted: 18 Nov 2015, 01:21 
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voltbird wrote:
Even a small fraction of rachmones would behoove you, but I suppose your mind is already made up.


Glad to see your earlier post on historical rejection of Jewish refugees.

However, I don't think the comparison holds persuasive weight for many of those rejecting the refugees, because increasingly I see anti-semitism expressed openly or implicitly in other of their arguments. A certain kind of neo-reactionary garbage sees races as significant (hence all that "cuck" talk, about Sweden etc. letting in foreigners), and like every racialist argument for nationalism it sooner or later turns on and attacks the Jewish people. A half-hour browsing the *chan politics forums where these views are fermented makes one despair of any rationality or, yes, mercy.

One of the depressing things about some aspects of the left in recent years has been their anti-semitism. And now we see it on the right again as well. I worry.

Omen
, when every fact you see is either support for your position or something to be dismissed, and when the world is made up of enemies and traitors in battle against a few enlightened defenders of some imagined bastion, then you've let anger take the place of argument, and you've let an unconscious Christian (Or Muslim, Jewish, all three religions share it) eschatological way of thinking replace any balanced historical view of reality.

As an historian used to studying the ends of things, I have to say: relax. Tumblr leftists are idiot kids, not a threat to society. No country on earth has ever been destroyed by immigration, ever. This is not the end, or even an end.

Or to reference the favourite doom-laden comparison of people like Niall Ferguson: this is not the fall of Rome. Rome didn't collapse because it welcomed foreigners. In fact, Rome ruled for a thousand years (or two thousand, if you include the East, or still, if we see the church as a continuation) by inviting people in. They beat Carthage because despite Carthage's superiority in many areas, Rome gave citizenship to those who fought for her, and Carthage just paid them--the Poenic desire for racial purity defeated them more than the Romans did, because they could not raise the manpower Rome could, despite having more territory. America, and not the Nazis, got the atomic bomb first, in part because the Nazi desire for racial purity made them kick out Jewish scientists, and America welcomed them.

But I don't know if there's a point in arguing with you, because you seem to see the world as either enemies or deluded fools helping those enemies, and so my arguing just makes you think I'm brainwashed. It's conspiracy-theory thinking, and that kind of logic is a fortress the gates of which no evidence can crack.


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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2015, 01:26 
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Last edited by omen on 11 Nov 2016, 17:01, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2015, 05:15 
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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2015, 06:57 
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omen wrote:
can't take another day here, time to pack.


"man seeking relief from oppressive national body of beliefs seeks refuge abroad."

i know there's a word for this in english, but i just can't seem to remember it. anyone help? it's on the tip of my tongue ..


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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2016, 01:35 
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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2016, 01:43 
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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2016, 13:48 
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I'm considering a new theory: 95% of race-panics originate in poor understandings of statistics/probabilities.

The article says:

Quote:
The Dagens Nyheter newspaper recently revealed that the police have designated a special code, R291, for incidents involving asylum seekers and refugees, allowing them to keep tabs on how last autumn’s record influx of asylum seekers into the country has affected their work.

According to SvD's collation of all R291 cases, police have been called out to no fewer than 559 registered assaults, 450 fights, 194 cases of violent threats, 58 fires, two bomb threats, nine robberies and four rapes, all involving recently arrived asylum seekers.


But this is UTTERLY meaningless (I can't even begin to state how much it's meaningless) without A: controlling for confounders and B: actually knowing the numbers involved. What percentage of the overall crime rate are these crimes? How many migrants are there? How does the migrant crime rate compare to native people of similar economic and educative status? 5000 (as the article says is the overall number) could mean that refugees are much less involved in crime (if the typical crime rate is 5% per capita and there are 500,000), or much more involved (if there are only 10,000 of them). The number is totally useless without proportions. And useless without confounders controlled for (e.g. obvious ones like location, housing and job-status, less obvious ones like bias in reporting, such as more domestic violence reported due to living in more crowded environs). It's like the old Swedish sexual assault statistics, EVERY FUCKING PERSON who reported them as evidence of migration failed to do any kind of sophisticated control of the data to see if in fact it was due to higher reporting of an existing crime rate rather than an increased crime rate with the same level of reporting.

Assuming these things just tells me the person quoting the data not only doesn't understand data, but they're really more interested in the (racialist) conclusions they've already drawn, and are now just looking for confirmation even when the confirmation is flimsy. (A similar thing just happened here after a journalist published a story about "Middle Eastern rape gangs" only to discover his only source was known to be unreliable and the whole story was totally false. Shouldn't have been published. But people believe because they want to believe, it seems, and ony quote the evidence to try to convince others, not out of any intellectual honesty).

The worst oversight in your post here, though, and another confounder not controlled for, is this:

Quote:
The the Swedish police’s National Operations Department (NOA) introduced the code in October at the peak of Sweden’s refugee crisis when as many as 10,000 new asylum seekers were registering in the country every week.

At the time police saw a surge in the number of call-outs to crimes of violence, arson and intimidation at asylum centres.

The code covers all cases “involving migrant situation”, including cases where asylum seekers are victims or perpetrators of crimes.


The code was introduced largely in response to crimes AGAINST refugees, and the stats include those crimes. So they can't even be compared to the national crime stats since those include discreet events, but this would inflate the number of events by including cases of crimes and cases of victimhood, whereas standard crime stats record each event once. And even if you managed to do THAT, you'd have to control for the higher rate of crimes AGAINST asylum seekers due to their vulnerability, which would distort the (already rubbish) figures.

I'm all for acknowledging truths even if they might be politically incorrect, but you're just flat-out wrong as to what these stats mean. It's prejudice disguised as a use of evidence. It's embarrassing.


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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2016, 07:21 
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Why is this white nationalist still here? I invite and encourage thoughtful discussion but there is no equivocating in this instance. Let's call it what it is, and we should not be tolerating this.


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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2016, 08:34 
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voltbird wrote:
Why is this white nationalist still here? I invite and encourage thoughtful discussion but there is no equivocating in this instance. Let's call it what it is, and we should not be tolerating this.


Won't speak for mods, but it's perhaps a legacy of people's time on SZ (and how it often ended) that they dislike bannings on principle.


Personally, I prefer to have extreme (and wrong) views aired so that they may be refuted. Otherwise they breed in silence until suddenly half the country is voting for Trump and no-one saw it coming.

Agree that his position does seem something all too close to white supremacy at times. Too much time on /pol/, probably, where the status quo, as far as I can tell, is based on the central fallacy, "political correctness can lead to obscuring the truth, therefore whatever is least politically correct must be the truth".


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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2016, 10:48 
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Quote:
Why is this white nationalist still here? we should not be tolerating this.


Quote:
Personally, I prefer to have extreme (and wrong) views aired so that they may be refuted. Otherwise they breed in silence


Its largely this, combined with general reluctance to moderate based on opinions held, however much i may disagree with them. part of the problem we've got is communities founded on ideological purity and low tolerance in deviation within those.

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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2016, 18:50 
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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2016, 22:21 
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c, i'm puzzled by your staunch anti-immigration outlook (in full understanding of the burden that europe and the world in general is struggling with at the moment) because you aren't exactly a 10th generation knight of odin, know what i'm saying? surely the circumstances of these people ending up somewhere livable aren't beyond your understanding, though with the kind of slurry of 'feminazi' 'tumblr sjw' and other guano-addled worldview terminology you're dousing the conversation in, you're beginning to sound beyond capacity for rational argument or understanding of these things any broader than 'get off my lawn' irritation. I would recommend retreating into a woodland survivalist compound and arming yourself in preparation for the end of days if that makes you feel better. Or maybe moving back to the balkans? Surely the serbs had a pretty good approach to dealing with unwanted ethnic minorities, unlike the effete scandinavian first-world cücks. you know, stuff you can really relate to. i dunno.

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