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PostPosted: 20 Jun 2013, 10:02 
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LaszloKovacs wrote:
Guattari, his point, which I find very good, is to avoid the traditional psychoanalytical angle of Kafka analysis. Sure he's promoting his own anti-Oedipus (from D&G :D ), desiring-machines angle but it is sufficiently fresh here to merit consideration, he's basically bringing the story back to it's own (and Kafka's own) specifics instead of subsuming it in the universal theater of the familial Oedipus.


I don't understand anything of what you are saying. I am not very familiar with Guattari, so I don't know if you can maybe explain these thoughts for someone who doesn't have that background. I don't even know what would be "the traditional psychoanalytical angle of Kafka analysis". I've never read The Trial in a "psychoanalytic" way.


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PostPosted: 23 Jun 2013, 01:41 
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docus, i finally read that paper, and loved it. a rare moment where an academic article articulates some ephemeral heartfelt, and a big grin at the nod to musil... always held that postulating a) every belief is a narrative and b) narrative is important, is tautological because postulate b) is, in itself, narrative. and, i've said it before, if ya wanna call me narrative go ahead; and if i were to object, you'd be fully justified; just don't think that your label is anything more than another narrative ;)

the following bit was a fave:

...the past can be present or alive in the present without being present or alive as the past. The past can be alive – arguably more genuinely alive – in the present simply in so far as it has helped to shape the way one is in the present, just as musicians’ playing can incorporate and body forth their past practice without being mediated by any explicit memory of it. What goes for musical development goes equally for ethical development, and Rilke’s remarks on poetry and memory, which have a natural application to the ethical case, suggest one way in which the Episodic attitude to the past may have an advantage over the Diachronic: ‘For the sake of a single poem’, he writes, ‘you must have ... many . . . memories. ... And yet it is not enough to have memories. ... For the memories themselves are not important.’ They give rise to a good poem ‘only when they have changed into our very blood, into glance and gesture, and are nameless, no longer to be distinguished from ourselves.’

rilu wrote:
a while ago i discussed with a friend the problem of narratives as the basis of cliches - the ways in which we try to find sense in a sufficiently familiar story in order to cover a bunch of bullshit we don't have a nerve (or intelligence) to bother with. but that's a basic psychology.

alfred jarry says something like the cliche is the armour of absolute. trying to cobble together something on schulz for your short stories thread and and that concept definitely ties into this.

rayuela, just read a fun one on memory, should you really have any doubts about that. written friendly-like, for the layman that i am, it's pertinent to docus' article as well.

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PostPosted: 23 Jun 2013, 10:00 
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speaking of memories immediately makes me think of Borges' Funes, the Memorious :) (http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/borges.htm)


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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2013, 06:24 
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^heh, thanks, you keep making me re-read borges, and that's a good thing, it refreshes my memory...

“Yes, we call it recursive, the act of reading, of looping the loop, of continually returning to an earlier group of words, behaving like Penelope by moving our mind back and forth, forth and back, reweaving what’s unwoven, undoing what’s been done; and language, which regularly returns us to its origin, which starts us off again on the same journey, older, altered, Columbus one more time, but better prepared each later voyage, knowing a bit more, ready for more, equal to a greater range of tasks, calmer, confident—after all, we’ve come this way before, have habits that help, and a favoring wind—language like that is the language which takes us inside, inside the sentence—inside—inside the mind—inside—inside, where meanings meet and are modified, reviewed and revised, where no perception, no need, no feeling or thought need be scanted or shunted aside.” —Gass

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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2013, 15:48 
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what an amazing quote, thank you for sharing it MJRH!
and speaking of language as the basis of routines and cliches reminds me of Burroughs' project of the cut-ups (or the "fold-in" method), as an attempt to escape that vicious circle of conventionality and ordination (where "language is a virus"). Some notes that others have written on this (since I don't know too much about Burroughs in general):

Quote:
As Burroughs experimented with the technique, he began to develop a theory of the cutup, and this theory was incorporated into his pseudoscience of addiction. In addition to drugs, sex, and power as aspects of man's addictive nature, Burroughs adds an analysis of control over human beings exercised by language ("the Word"), time, and space (i.e., man's physical existence and the mental constructs he uses to survive and adapt). Drugs, sex, and power control the body, but "word and image locks" control the mind, that is, "lock" us into conventional patterns of perceiving, thinking, and speaking that determine our interactions with environment and society. The cutup is a way of exposing word and image controls and thus freeing oneself from them, an alteration of consciousness that occurs in both the writer and the reader of the text.
(http://www.languageisavirus.com/articles/articles.php?subaction=showcomments&id=1099111044&..#.UeAcVI4tjb8)

Quote:
What Burroughs terms the viral function of language is its ongoing ordering of reality toward the limit of total control, the opposite of anarchy. He employs the figure of the virus, a force hovering between evolving being and mere replicator, to problematize conventional definitions of living and non-living.9 In Burroughs' cosmos, one must always remember that the words one transmits can never be neutral moves in the universal language-game; even if misfiring, some sort of force is necessarily being transmitted. [...] As apomorphine was Burroughs' antidote to morphine addiction, so silence is the antidote to word-addiction and the fold-in to order-addiction.11 This resistance, in Burroughs' work, is the only option under the circumstances of total occupation by Control.
(http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/backissues/68/wood68.html)

it would be interesting to discuss this project. can the "ordinative powers" of words really be deactivated? or are they merely taken up by another language game, for otherwise they won't be re-rooted in a certain discourse that allows for communication and understanding, with its own rules and ordinations? but maybe i am just missing the point entirely and i have to read more stuff on this first!


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PostPosted: 15 Jul 2013, 19:46 
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of course they can be deactivated, as long as we can agree there's such a thing as a non-ordinative state (and there certainly is). words cannot directly uncover it, but they can point the way to it. the greatest truth is always metaphor

The path crosses a deserted region: that is nevertheless a region of apparitions (of delights and fears). Beyond: the lost movement of a blind man, arms raised, eyes wide open, fixedly regarding the sun and himself, within, becoming light. One imagines a change so quick, a flame so sudden that the idea of substance seems empty: place, exteriority, image, so many empty words; the words displaced least—fusion, light—are by nature ungraspable. Difficult to speak of love, a burnt word, powerless, for the same reason as of subjects and objects that communally sink into their impotence. Bataille

If there were a problem,
How could I be rid of it?
Who can destroy what is real?
If there were no problem,
How could I be rid of it?
Who can destroy the unreal?
Nagarjuna

unfortunately i know even less of burroughs than you do, tried reading naked lunch but found it unpalatable, otherwise i could comment further

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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2013, 06:25 
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As one who has just started reading literature, I found this excerpt of a letter from Flannery O'Connor to Dr. T.R. Spivey to be very refreshing.

"Week before I last went to Wesleyan and read "A Good Man Is Hard to Find." After it I went to one of the classes where I was asked questions. There were a couple of young teachers there and one of them, and earnest type, started asking questions. 'Miss O'Connor,' he said, 'why was the Misfit's hat black?' I said most countrymen in Georgia wore black hats. He looked pretty disappointed. Then he said, 'Miss O'Connor, the Misfit represents Christ, does he not?' 'He does not,' I said. He looked crushed. 'Well, Mrs. O'Connor,' he said, 'what is the significance of the Misfit's hat?' I said it was to cover his head; and after that he left me alone. Anyway, that's what's happening to the teaching of literature."

I understand that this may not be a quote that is very insightful to those who are familiar with literature, but for those who are ignorant, such as myself, I hope it can have some positive impact.


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PostPosted: 18 Aug 2013, 09:39 
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yeah it's a good quote, made me smile :)


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PostPosted: 21 Dec 2013, 01:34 
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No other painter’s works have been forged as frequently as Corot’s. One day a gentleman shows up in the master’s studio, who, having bought a painting signed ‘Corot’ in a small art shop, wants to know whether it has really been painted by Corot. After one brief look at the canvas Corot shakes his head. Transported by rage, the buyer declares that he will report the art dealer to the police. ‘Report to the police?,’ the painter vents his annoyance. ‘Nonsense, that man has a wife and a child. Do you want to ruin the life of that fellow?’ ‘What do I care about wife and child? A fraud is a fraud and the law ….’ ‘The law? Bah, it won’t take much to turn this little painting into an original Corot.’ With that, the master puts the canvas on the easel and adds a few brush strokes, thus turning the fake Corot into a genuine one. ‘There,’ he murmurs in a satisfied voice, returning the painting to the buyer, ‘now you won’t be able to say anymore that this is forgery and fraud. You could see it with your own eyes how I painted it.’
(futility closet)

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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2013, 14:15 
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this value of the "real" or "authentic" reminded me of this poem by Charles Simic, which I read ages ago:

Description of a Lost Thing

It never had a name,
Nor do I remember how I found it.
I carried it in my pocket
Like a lost button
Except it wasn’t a button.

Horror movies,
All-night cafeterias,
Dark barrooms
And poolhalls,
On rain-slicked streets.

It led a quiet, unremarkable existence
Like a shadow in a dream,
An angel on a pin,
And then it vanished.
The years passed with their row

Of nameless stations,
Till somebody told me this is it!
And fool that I was,
I got off on an empty platform
With no town in sight.


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PostPosted: 25 Dec 2013, 13:26 
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"Where do I get my ideas from? You might as well have asked that of Beethoven. He was goofing around in Germany like everybody else, and all of a sudden this stuff came gushing out of him. It was music. I was goofing around like everybody else in Indiana, and all of a sudden stuff came gushing out. It was disgust with civilization."

Kurt Vonnegut to the Backwards City Review, 2004


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PostPosted: 27 Apr 2014, 22:39 
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re:recent discussions

Soul is the vaporization out of which everything else is composed; moreover it is the least corporeal of things and is in ceaseless flux, for the moving world can only be known by what is in motion. --Heraclitus

he also said "the dry soul is wisest and best," so the intellectual may be dry, but clearly that means he's got the most soul :D

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PostPosted: 01 May 2014, 16:38 
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the sense of soul or soul's mode and whereabouts michel serres describes is fascinating.

"now determine where the soul is, by putting your elbows on your knees, by placing one part of your body on another. there is no end to it, the only limit is your own suppleness. metaphysics begins with, and conditioned by, gymnastics."


serres says the soul lies where the skin folds, touches on itself, like lip against lip, eyelids closed, etc. this way the soul comes and goes, lost and found. the soul passes and moves on the skin. tattooing is a drawing of the pathways. the tattoo is a map of the soul.

"observe on the surface of the skin, the changing, shimmering, fleeting soul, the blazing, striated, tinted, streaked, striped, many-colored, mottled, cloudy, star-studded, bedizened, variegated, torrential, swirling soul."


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PostPosted: 11 May 2014, 23:56 
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there is also the david foster wallace story of the boy who tried to kiss every part of his body

there was some talk of buddhism and that sorta stuff recently, here are some relevant quotations:

"I still don't know what you mean by enlightenment."
"A state of negation. Negation is the most positive action, not positive assertion. This is a very important thing to understand. Most of us so easily accept positive dogma, a positive creed, because we want to be secure, to belong, to be attached, to depend. The positive attitude divides and brings about duality. The conflict then begins between this attitude and others. But the negation of all values, of all morality, of all beliefs, having no frontiers, cannot be in opposition to anything. A positive statement in its very definition separates, and separation is resistance. To this we are accustomed, this is our conditioning. To deny all this is not immoral; on the contrary to deny all division and resistance is the highest morality. To negate everything that man has invented, to negate all his values, ethics, and gods, is to be in a state of mind in which there is no duality, therefore no resistance or conflict between opposites. In this state there are no opposites, and this state is not the opposite of something else." Krishnamurti

That samsara is just a mistake and nirvana is when you simply stop making that mistake is the reason samsara and nirvana are actually undifferentiable, why they are of the nature of equality. The example of the dream makes this point clear. When you dream and do not know you are dreaming, the ignorance of the fact that it is a dream leads to attachment to some dream appearances and aversion to others, and this causes suffering. Once you realize that it is a dream, attachment and aversion dissolve and everything becomes open, spacious, and relaxed. From the perspective of the dream appearances themselves, however, nothing has changed at all. There was nothing wrong with those appearances in the first place, and therefore there were no flaws with them that needed to be abandoned or corrected, nor any positive qualities that needed to be added to make them better. They were originally pure and originally free, meaning that in their nature they transcended the characterizations of both confusion and realization, both suffering and bliss. Since from their own perspective there was never any suffering inherent in them in the first place, they transcend the notion of the bliss that is the freedom from that suffering as well. In this way, the example of dream appearances illuminates the equality of ignorance and realization, of samsara and nirvana. Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso

the tendency to think of nirvana as some mountain you scale or a muscle you can develop by doing enough reps or someshit is kinda contrary to the whole point... i prefer to think of it as divine laziness.

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PostPosted: 08 Dec 2014, 17:27 
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"he was somewhere, he had come back through vast regions from nowhere; there was the certitude of an infinite sadness at the core of his consciousness, but the sadness was reassuring, because it alone was familiar. "

bowles, the sheltering sky



ichiro kojima, 1957


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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2016, 18:02 
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Image

What matters is not that the copy should be similar to the model, but that the model should have the courage to resemble its copy.
—Magritte

He made use of his prison in order that he might escape.
—Sautenaire on Magritte

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2016, 06:12 
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Quote:
Interviewer: One of the things that Oscar Wilde has said is that in matters of great importance it is not sincerity that counts, but style. Do you feel that one should compromise on sincerity?

Quentin Crisp: That was Mr. Wilde's great error. Because to a great stylist, they're the same thing. He thought of style as a sort of glittering tinsel that falls onto rather banal material. But, if you're a real stylist, your style informs the subject matter. The subject matter is known through the style. They can't be separated. Because style is not elegance, and style is not flourishes, and style is not mannerisms. Style is who you really are and how you present it.


Honestly, I'm not sure the man ever spoke a word that wasn't eminently quotable...

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PostPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 19:36 
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just reread the alexandria quartet for the umptillionth (actually, fifth) time. so many gems, lapidary indeed as durrell loves to say:

Scobie used to say, in an expansive moment: 'Cheer up, me boyo, it takes a lifetime to grow. People haven't the patience any more. My mother waited nine months for me!' A singular thought.

Perception is shaped like an embrace—the poison enters with the embrace. (Pursewarden.)

Sleeplessness is in the first instance simply exaggerated self-importance.

Religion is simply art bastardized out of all recognition.

Art's Truth's Nonentity made quite explicit.
If it ain't this then what the devil is it?

================================

was recently deleriated reading desnos for the first time:

Corsair Sanglot was still walking.
Here, at last, is the woman whose coming I have announced, marvellous adventures will link them together. They are going to bump into whatever.
She is wearing cherry-coloured silk, she is tall, she is, she is, what exactly is she like?
She is here.
I can see her in every detail of her splendid nature. I am going to touch her, stroke her.
Corsair Sanglot undertakes to, Corsair Sanglot begins to, Corsair Sanglot, Corsair Sanglot.
The woman I love, the woman, ah! I was going to write her name. I was going to write "I was going to write her name."
Count, Robert Desnos, count the number of times you have used the words "marvellous", "magnificent"...
Corsair Sanglot no longer walks around the shop of reproduction furniture.
The woman that I love!
(Liberty or Love!)

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PostPosted: 04 Sep 2017, 17:21 
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"most people in the world think in terms of winning or losing, but I hate both these things."
at this point Taku hesitantly put a question to him. "but when you're faced with the situation of having no way around a choice between winning and losing...?
Tenro looked at taku and smiled. "there's always a way around," he said. "you'll have learned from this great nori that there are a great many other paths open to this country, extraordinary paths unknown to most people."
"yes." Taku nodded. it was true. there's always a hidden way. it's just that we can't see it. but surely there are also situations where one is forced to choose between two options.
Tenro seemed to have guessed his thoughts, for he went on, "if the time comes when we have to choose..." he paused, and looked at Ai. "what will you do, Ai ?"
Ai didn't hesitate. "choose to lose," she replied.
"well spoken. this means you really are the third group leader." a flush rose in Tenro's cheeks, and his eyes shone with joy.


from the kingdom of the wind / hiroyuki itsuki


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