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 Post subject: Undercover
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 13:45 
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A thread for Undercover.

Let's start with the most recent collection: Spring 2014

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[image]http://www.style.com/fashion-shows/spring-2014-ready-to-wear/paris/undercover/collection/MARC0107.450x675.JPG[/image]
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[img]http://www.style.com/fashion-shows/spring-2014-ready-to-wear/paris/undercover/collection/MARC0145.450x675.JPG[/image]
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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 13:49 
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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 13:57 
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this is simply perfect. i'll come back later to post more thoughts on this.


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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 19:47 
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really? i mean, maybe i truly don't get 'fashion'.

happily so

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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 20:28 
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yes! i think it's this represents an excellent reflection of the nowadays society: from my point of view, this collection is as contemporary as it gets given the overall shitty state of the "pop-culture". but what makes this collection so interesting, in my view, is the twist with the designs in those dresses, which are somewhere between sportswear and the aesthetics of Gibson's Neuromancer, and which are reflecting this culture both as it is and as it is not, with a little bit of irony attached, but not too much to make it ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2013, 09:47 
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some of these fluorescent shirts are actually blinking, I found a video of the show's ending:

phpBB [video]


(the lines are from the recent album "Silence Yourself" by Savages)


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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 25 Oct 2013, 10:47 
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merz wrote:
really? i mean, maybe i truly don't get 'fashion'.

happily so


You wear it so you get it.


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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 25 Oct 2013, 18:17 
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I'm honestly not sure that i do, and the things i've gravitated towards have been further away from stuff shown here, which i truly can't relate to in any sense at all. there are times when i might find something interesting or meaningful outside of the scope of my personal interests, and here's i'm just sort of scratching my head.

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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 30 Oct 2013, 14:14 
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merz wrote:
I'm honestly not sure that i do, and the things i've gravitated towards have been further away from stuff shown here, which i truly can't relate to in any sense at all. there are times when i might find something interesting or meaningful outside of the scope of my personal interests, and here's i'm just sort of scratching my head.


I just mean that while this is not the same style than, say, Carpe Diem, it is certainly not any more or any less fashion than Carpe Diem.


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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 30 Oct 2013, 14:17 
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ahhhhahaha let's discuss the concept of fashion again! why not!


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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 30 Oct 2013, 17:14 
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quite a stretch. no narrative, no spectacle and, if you omit the unfortunate 'mom, the snake he bites me' moment, no slogan of any sort. and since you're talking about myself specifically, no quarter given to designer's intentions, with much of the stuff re-cut and differing from whatever its original proportions may have been. so unless you're extending the definition to all clothing that isn't a uniform/clear reflection of some purpose or the preference of one thing to another, its kind of a lazy argument to make.

when i'm saying fashion i'm referring specifically to the spectacle and clothes that look to be props in the spectacle, whether they are worn on the runway or outside of it. we've been over this so many times that i honestly can't figure out why you're going there again, but i don't mind..

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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2013, 02:16 
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i guess i could try to see this as a satire of our generations need to express individuality through clothing, by dressing models in neon signs with vacant pointless statements.


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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2013, 09:07 
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merz wrote:
quite a stretch. no narrative, no spectacle and, if you omit the unfortunate 'mom, the snake he bites me' moment, no slogan of any sort. and since you're talking about myself specifically, no quarter given to designer's intentions, with much of the stuff re-cut and differing from whatever its original proportions may have been. so unless you're extending the definition to all clothing that isn't a uniform/clear reflection of some purpose or the preference of one thing to another, its kind of a lazy argument to make.

when i'm saying fashion i'm referring specifically to the spectacle and clothes that look to be props in the spectacle, whether they are worn on the runway or outside of it. we've been over this so many times that i honestly can't figure out why you're going there again, but i don't mind..


Carpe Diem looks like costume, undercover looks like what people can wear in the street. Maybe only Carpe is fashion...


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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2013, 09:21 
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^ What do you mean when you say that something looks like a costume? Where's the borderline for what counts as a costume and what not?
And even if we describe something as "costume", what is aesthetically wrong with that?

Next, merz, the spectacle you talk about - I'd like to distinguish between spectacle for the sake of spectacle and spectacle that reveals something more interesting. Most runways are spectacles, but that's just a part of this very form of presenting things. We talked about this in the thread on Rick Owens, and I don't see why "spectacle" as such should be used as an argument against the aesthetic appeal of clothing.


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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2013, 22:25 
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LaszloKovacs wrote:
Carpe Diem looks like costume, undercover looks like what people can wear in the street. Maybe only Carpe is fashion....


sorry, i still don't see your reasoning and am inclined to assume that you're trolling. maybe you're saving it for an involved discussion with a certain stubby sociopath, i mean who knows. if you're looking to get a reaction out of me, it looks something like this. going back to what docus said about consistency, there is a sort of comfort i draw from my aesthetic choices that is almost certainly not unlike the comfort you find in the same. after all, yours has remained a great deal more consistent over the years than the general ebb and flow of crotch, rain pattern or harnden-patented button-backing. this comfort is a pretty personal thing, and some people have found theirs in some unlikely places, making the sort of stuff i'd never dare attempt extremely natural and unselfconscious. to me, this has been what turned clothes into a costume - the lack of apparent conviction on the part of the wearer, and part of why i teased poor fark & HDG. some people never seem themselves convinced in what they are wearing actually working for them, the whole thing turning into a bunch of awkward dithering and validation-seeking on an internet forum. used to be a (very sad, i know..) source of entertainment, though i find myself unable to care enough to say anything anymore.

the other bit about costume that doesn't make sense to me is that a costume must exist within the popular consciousness. 'generic gothninja' qualifies for this one, yohji and rick's work has become ubiquitous enough to register. but carpe had never garnered the kind of popular attention, and although some of the participants were looking for that, altieri himself was at his most uncomfortable, looking for a way out at the label's commercial peak. I guess i would be too if the future prospects for 'success' were in supplying leather pants to aging rockstars.

it never did that well, in part because it eschewed the spectacle and promotion, and in part because the stuff was challenging to wear to the audience who could have received it at the retail price point, where you are probably right in your assertion that undercover's flashing LED print shirts, vinyl pants and high heels were far more palatable to the traditional luxury consumer than stuff that looked, to paraphrase that most sophisticated of journalists, 'like a clown from la strada'..

all that said, i'm still struggling to understand your argument besides your usual, intellectually-lazy 'its all relative' cop-out that absolves you of the need to substantiate anything you claim. might work in the house that ad banners built, not so much here.


rilu wrote:
^but that's just a part of this very form of presenting things. We talked about this in the thread on Rick Owens, and I don't see why "spectacle" as such should be used as an argument against the aesthetic appeal of clothing.


guess i don't look for epiphanies in that sort of spectacle.. I still find them occasionally, like the conversation hlee initiated about the two-dimensional designs and the relationship between that industry, photography, the internet and the way images are being consumed.. its clever, but it isn't about clothes. I guess i really don't care about fashion of it, least of all the currency. part of why i didn't comment on the rick thread was because there was nothing to add. article after article i read people digging deeply into something that was not necessarily there. i'm sure the debate was not unwelcome to rick, but people are sometimes reading far deeper into the implications of something like that than what i saw then, or what i had seen before. or what i'm sure i'll see after if i can be bothered to look. as each year departs, my interest grows sparse. my most memorable moments and thoughts to do with clothes have mainly been those of wearing or handling various things and the runway, for the most part, tells less and less about that..

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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 12:10 
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Ah I've just seen your discussion on this. I'll get back to it later, this is an interesting topic.

I came across some very nice photos from early Undercover (thanks to http://archivings.net/), but I can't repost them since they are wider than 800 pixels :-/


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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 17:43 
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would love to see the stuff. and i wouldn't go so far as to say that it has all been pure spectacle all of the time. i just have little interest in the most recent thing we started this conversation off with. I really do wish fuuma would come by to finish his thought and explain exactly what it was that he had been trying to say with that earlier statement..

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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 08 Nov 2013, 02:02 
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I've never seen that version of Spirited Away and No Face haha that really made me laugh :D
I see your point, and there might be something here that has to do with the potential for a collection to be trend-creating, or too conforming to the popular culture. Now I wouldn't call that aspect of a collection as such problematic (and the same goes for other types of arts, just think of music and bands who started something that then became a trend). But maybe a different kind of appeal comes from clothes (and collections) that simply lack this potential from the very start, but therefore offer something else instead (that comes from the construction, fabrics, details, etc.). Maybe this subtlety in the latter it what distinguishes them from the former, I'm not sure...


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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 08 Nov 2013, 23:39 
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thanks to http://archivings.net/ for putting these up

Undercover Fall/Winter 2001

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Undercover Fall/Winter 1997-1998 by Masashi Ohashi for High Fashion Magazine 10 October 1997

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 Post subject: Re: Undercover
PostPosted: 09 Nov 2013, 00:08 
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i'm a dunce: for me, this stuff plays the same role as modern art. you go, you see the painting or commode or whatever, it means nothing—nothing registers! you then read the plaque on the wall, it's revelatory, once explained, the message is clarity itself and you now know precisely where this artist is coming from, and... that's it. a joke's ruined if it needs to be explained, and i'll agree, it's my fault for being a dunce and needing the joke to be explained in the first place, but then again couldn't these jokes be made slightly clearer to begin? am i that much more dumb than the average feller who tries to like this kind of presentation, or am i just more honest?—daft and unfruitful questions, these last.

rilu said this original undercover collection was culture-as-it-is and culture-as-it-is-not. that explains a bit of it, ok, now i get it slightly, but then the original images become faded, the critique overpowers the content, so the outfits continue not to mean much of anything. i'm left with an idea, not clothing, and the idea didn't spring from the clothing, it sprang from the 'plaque,' so to speak. which is why i'm with merz in that the continues lines, that which lacks spectacle, is more for me, i know there's no 'message' (of the same sort as with undercover, to hopefully forestall fuuma) that i'm missing but despite this it still somehow conveys the ghost of a message to me.

now, i just need to figure out why i wrote the above, yet still love chalayan so much, who clearly falls into the 'spectacle' category.

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