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 Post subject: Re: fart
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2016, 01:42 
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“I recently published Jeff Nuttall’s Art and the Degradation of Awareness, in which says ‘Art gives out of courage; fashion takes out of fear.’ Most of the ‘art’ we hear about today is fashion driven by commerce. Money is just a means of exchange, a means of keeping a roof over your head and all that, but to pursue wealth for its own sake is decadent. I agree with Samuel Beckett that one has to teach oneself not to want things. One wants many things for no better reason than that advertisers train us to want them.”

From an interview with John Calder. Differentiating between fashion and art on an axis of emotion rather than of utility is an interesting take. And the point about the decadence of loving money may be translated, in the age of social media, to a love of exposure or approval, which are both takings and not givings. Examples come unbidden to mind. Yet again, though, the bugbear of authenticity rears its ugly muzzle...

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 Post subject: Re: fart
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2016, 23:35 
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hehe, yeah the authenticity ;)
thanks for sharing the article, will check it out!


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 Post subject: Re: fart
PostPosted: 27 Jun 2016, 09:30 
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MJRH wrote:
‘Art gives out of courage; fashion takes out of fear.’


I see the motivation for saying this, although I would suspect that's more a redefinition of the two terms than a useful mapping of the words as they exist (where much "art" takes out of fear also). I think all mappings of areas of life onto one feeling will lead to simplification. I mean, simplification can be useful as a signpost out of present confusion/quagmires, but can just as easily lead us into quagmires.

The idea of taking and giving is interesting, relative to love: isn't love about more than giving? giving can be greedy (those who insist on doing nice things for one who is uninterested in them, thus trying to force obligation upon them). And Love itself seems like a paradoxical greed (desire) to give, to sacrifice oneself. Like the desire to create life (an extension of eros according to Diotima).


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 Post subject: giggity
PostPosted: 28 Jun 2016, 05:20 
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fit magna caedes wrote:
MJRH wrote:
‘Art gives out of courage; fashion takes out of fear.’


I see the motivation for saying this, although I would suspect that's more a redefinition of the two terms than a useful mapping of the words as they exist (where much "art" takes out of fear also). I think all mappings of areas of life onto one feeling will lead to simplification. I mean, simplification can be useful as a signpost out of present confusion/quagmires, but can just as easily lead us into quagmires.


Right. And even if a term other than the currently rather down-at-heels "art" and "fashion" were coined, it would be adopted and sullied by both corporate pig marketing bastards and second-rate hacks in under one business day.

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The idea of taking and giving is interesting, relative to love: isn't love about more than giving? giving can be greedy (those who insist on doing nice things for one who is uninterested in them, thus trying to force obligation upon them). And Love itself seems like a paradoxical greed (desire) to give, to sacrifice oneself. Like the desire to create life (an extension of eros according to Diotima).


Ok just for the sake of disagreeing cause it's been quiet here, yeah you can give someone herpes for example but I think when Calder said "art gives" he intended the word in slightly more praiseworthy terms; giving to get something back definitely isn't giving it's emotional blackmail, sacrificing oneslef or martyrdom can sometimes be unnecessarily roundabout ways of jacking off, and desiring to create life isn't always about giving it's often egotistical ("carrying on the line," bleccchh). If love's about more than giving, then what else is it?

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 Post subject: Re: giggity
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2016, 14:02 
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MJRH wrote:
Ok just for the sake of disagreeing cause it's been quiet here, yeah you can give someone herpes for example but I think when Calder said "art gives" he intended the word in slightly more praiseworthy terms; giving to get something back definitely isn't giving it's emotional blackmail, sacrificing oneslef or martyrdom can sometimes be unnecessarily roundabout ways of jacking off, and desiring to create life isn't always about giving it's often egotistical ("carrying on the line," bleccchh). If love's about more than giving, then what else is it?


I think what is interesting about love (well, everything about love is interesting) is that it's a domain where the authenticity question is of immediate and practical import. Whether you genuinely feel what you presently think you do, or whether, (to use "love" to mean the entire transaction) the relationship is a "real" one as opposed to an imitation, this is something we are driven to ask by the very parameters of (romantic) love.

So giving can be selfish, or thoughtless, but we'd surely say that the kind of giving that characterises a real love is both a desire (therefore selfish in some sense) and a selflessness, all at once. Wouldn't we say that? Or is the authenticity debate still as pointless here as anywhere else?


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